Tom Zé: “With that mind, Gil had no need for regular classes”

The tropicalist singer and songwriter believes that Gilberto Gil had always been ready for a revolution in the musical thinking.

By Instituto Gilberto Gil

Interview: Chris Fuscaldo*, journalist and music researcher

Singer and songwriter Tom Zé sends message to Gilberto Gil (Maio de 2020)Instituto Gilberto Gil

A message to Gil

The Bahia-born from Irará city Antônio José Santana Martins, better known as the tropicalist Tom Zé, sends a message to Gilberto Gil about Arabic, Celtic, and Sufism influences in the music.

How did you meet Gilberto Gil and what impression did his music leave on you?

Gilberto Gil com Tom Zé, Piti e Roberto Santana na década de 1960Instituto Gilberto Gil

Tom Zé:

This joyful moment took place in the beginning of the 1960s. It was Orlando Senna, the filmmaker, who set the meeting up. Curiously, when Gil took over the Ministry of Culture, he put the Cinema sector into Senna’s hands.

You already had experience in classical music when first met Gil and Caetano. Do you believe this background of yours helped them?

Ministro da Cultura Gilberto Gil em recepção de calouros da Universidade Federal da Bahia (2006-03-15)Instituto Gilberto Gil

Tom Zé:

This question raises the opportunity to evaluate how the School of Music at the Federal University of Bahia [UFBA, in the Portuguese acronym] worked for people like Gil. The School would also work as an open university, through the concerts performed at the Rectorate of UFBA.

LIFE Photo Collection

A person with a mind like Gil’s had no need to enroll regular classes in order to learn an entire revolution in the musical thinking, starting in the route of counterpoint Palestrina style, passing by Debussy (and his hexatonic scale)…

The Hungarian composer, Bela Bartok.Yad Vashem

… and Stravisnky, who brought dissonance to an abysmal edge.
Then deep-diving into the modernism of Béla Bartók, practicing his harmonization method with the very notes of the folkloric songs of the Eastern Europe.

Jam Session (1943) by Gjon MiliLIFE Photo Collection

Going through the bold creations of Paul Hindemith to John Cage and his “prepared piano,” which consisted in opening the instrument and placing over its strings artifacts such as rubber, glass, small wooden pieces and God only knows what else, to get devilish sonorities.

Gilberto Gil e Carlos Prazeres durante a gravação do show Concerto de Cordas e Máquinas de Ritmo (2012-05-28)Instituto Gilberto Gil

Also passing by Darius Milhaud, who had worked at the French Embassy in Brazil and Charles Ives, an American who had very much a disrespected tonality, and whose father, a protector of bandstand acts, promoted parades of those.

Ft Bragg Gi Parade For Peace, N. Carolina (1969-10-12) by Lynn PelhamLIFE Photo Collection

He had two bands, while parading, to cross paths in opposite directions. They had to be deeply concentrated, so they would not miss the rhythm—what, at the very least, resulted in a polytonality that got inside his son’s ear.

Carl Orff (1895-1982)Bavarian State Library

Getting to the bold acts of Carl Orff up to the final decision of Schoenberg, who with his Pierrot Lunaire had entirely abandoned tonality and later on would create the dodecaphonic method and serialism.

Gilberto Gil em ensaio fotográfico na sua casa em Salvador (2006)Instituto Gilberto Gil

Well, for God’s sake, how would Gilberto Gil’s mind, deeply interested in music, input and process it all?

Vista noturna do centro de SalvadorInstituto Gilberto Gil

Take into account that multiple were the revolutions created by Rector Edgar Santos to turn the city of Salvador into what anthropologist Antonio Risério have called Avant-gard na Bahia:

Livreto do Show Gilberto Gil em Sinfonia Coral no teatro Castro Alves, produzido pela Escola de Música da Universidade Federal da Bahia de Música Livreto do Show Gilberto Gil em Sinfonia Coral no teatro Castro Alves, produzido pela Escola de Música da Universidade Federal da Bahia de Música (12/1/1994)Instituto Gilberto Gil

The Music School, which Koellreutter only agreed to organize once his sine qua non demand of having carte blanche to disrespect the syllabus was accepted—given the “absolutely ridiculous [syllabus] of the Ministry of Education (sic).”

Ballet Essay (1940/1950) by Gjon MiliLIFE Photo Collection

In addition, Edgard Santos had also founded, employing international grade directors, the School of Dance, under the standards of Polish dancer Yanka Rudzka and the School of Theatre, oriented by artist Martim Gonçalves.

Gilberto Gil durante cerimônia de entrega do título de doutor honoris causa na UFBA (2005-08-26)Instituto Gilberto Gil

Thus, we can conclude, there was no need for Gilberto Gil to attend an entire series of concerts at the rectorate.

Gilberto Gil no Teatro Rossetti, em Trieste, onde fez show da Solo Tour (2014-11-01)Instituto Gilberto Gil

By showing up 10% of the time, and with all the excitement in the cultural environment of the city etc., so many spectacles at the theatre and dance school etc., the mutual beneficial conversation with artist friends etc., Gil would input the same challenges into his brains.

Gilberto Gil com equipe do espetáculo Arena Canta Bahia (1965-12-01)Instituto Gilberto Gil

As well as with/or so many spectacles at the theatre and dance schools, and/or the mutual beneficial conversation with artist friends etc. etc.

What do you think was your main contribution to the Tropicalist movement?

Gilberto Gil, Caetano Veloso, Guilherme Araújo e os tropicalistas posam, em 1968, para a Revista Manchete (1968)Instituto Gilberto Gil

Tom Zé:

The correct answer is my main contribution was to appreciate it. Yet, so I don’t sound too pretentious, I name the composing of “2.001,” in partnership with Rita Lee.

Ilustração de Thiago de Paula sobre os 50 anos do Tropicalismo, que representa Gilberto Gil ao lado de Gal Costa, Caetano Veloso e Tom Zé (Dezembro de 2018)Instituto Gilberto Gil

How do you see the fact that the major innovations in Brazilian music have come from the hands of three artists who, more than just being Bahia-natives, have come from the inlands; given that you are from Irará, Caetano is from Santo Amaro da Purificação, and Gil has spent a fairly while in Ituaçu?

Gilberto Gil, Tom Zé e Caetano Veloso no programa Som Brasil (1997-11-11)Instituto Gilberto Gil

Tom Zé:

Because, in our education, before elementary school, which would start at the age of 8, there was no Aristotle.

Legend has it that your song in partnership with Rita Lee, “2.001” was even offered to other songwriters to partner in, before landing into her hands. Was Gilberto Gil one of them?

Gilberto Gil com Tom Zé no lançamento do livro Todas as Letras (1996)Instituto Gilberto Gil

Tom Zé:

Our manager handed the lyrics to Rita. It is unbeknownst to me whether he offered to someone else before. Besides, there is quite an odd partnership involving same lyrics: professor Ernst Widmer also put melody to it, obviously in a very different style and which was never released.

Once, in an interview, you joked saying you were sort of “afraid” of Gilberto Gil, and that he is part of “another world, another universe.” What did you mean by that?

Gilberto Gil com Tom Zé no lançamento do livro Todas as Letras (1996)Instituto Gilberto Gil

Tom Zé:

Sometimes I do feel afraid.

Qual é a canção mais bonita de Gilberto Gil?

Gilberto Gil no III Festival Internacional da Canção Popular (1968-09-14)Instituto Gilberto Gil

Tom Zé:

“Palavra de ordem,” which was disqualified at a Theatre of the Catholic University [TUCA, in the Portuguese acronym], in 1968. But note how fast the devil works his way.

Gilberto Gil em show no TUCA (1974)Instituto Gilberto Gil

Almost simultaneously to the declassification, no other than the King’s College, from London University, which already had a cultural center of Latin-American studies, founded, linked to the cultural department, a connect center for Studies of Brazilian Society and Culture.

The seminal source for data was Brazilian popular music. Here, we had not heard of such news, but historian Nicolau Sevcenko, who at the time was working at that very King’s College, came to São Paulo and, while attending the book launch of musician and linguist Luiz Tatit, he commented on the fact.

Gilberto Gil e a cantora Tuca em apresentação na década de 1960 (Década de 1960)Instituto Gilberto Gil

He added that it showed how the music of our country was respected abroad, specially by well-renowned institutions.

What are your memories of the Tropicália ou Panis Et Circencis album cover and of the recording of the album?

Capa do álbum Tropicália ou Panis Et Circencis, de Gilberto Gil, Caetano Veloso, Gal Costa, Mutantes, Tom Zé, Nara Leão, acompanhados dos poetas Capinam e Torquato Neto e do maestro Rogério Duprat (1968)Instituto Gilberto Gil

Tom Zé:

At the time of the shoot, Guilherme Araújo, our manager, told me: “Hold this suitcase, you are wearing a very ugly outfit.”

Contracapa do álbum Tropicália ou Panis Et Circencis, de Gilberto Gil, Caetano Veloso, Gal Costa, Mutantes, Tom Zé, Nara Leão, acompanhados dos poetas Capinam e Torquato Neto e do maestro Rogério Duprat (1968)Instituto Gilberto Gil

Did you sing in the recording of “Parque industrial”? Is the voice singing the verses beginning with “a revista moralista…” yours?

Gilberto Gil e o cantor e compositor Caetano Veloso à época do movimento tropicalista (1968)Instituto Gilberto Gil

Tom Zé:

I didn’t, I think that voice is Caetano Veloso’s, who did a little play of mimicking me.

You career has taken more of an alternative path, when compared to Gil and Caetano’s. How do the reencounters with them go, nowadays?

Gilberto Gil, Tom Zé e Caetano Veloso em entrevista na inauguração do Gabinete de Leitura Guilherme Araújo (2015-09-16)Instituto Gilberto Gil

Tom Zé:

I think this is what I knew how to do. Reencounters are fun.

Tom Zé, Gilberto Gil e Caetano Veloso na gravação do programa Som Brasil Especial Tropicália, da TV Globo (1997-11-11)Instituto Gilberto Gil

Credits: Story

Exhibit credits

Interview and video editing: Chris Fuscaldo (*with Ricardo Schott collaboration)
Assembly: Patrícia Sá Rêgo
Copyediting: Laura Zandonadi
Acknowledgments: Tom Zé, Neusa Martins


General credits

Editing and curating: Chris Fuscaldo / Garota FM
Musical content research: Ceci Alves, Chris Fuscaldo, and Ricardo Schott
MinC content research: Carla Peixoto, Ceci Alves, and Laura Zandonadi
Photo subtitles: Anna Durão, Carla Peixoto, Ceci Alves, Chris Fuscaldo, Daniel Malafaia, Gilberto Porcidonio, Kamille Viola, Laura Zandonadi, Lucas Vieira, Luciana Azevedo, Patrícia Sá Rêgo, Pedro Felitte, Ricardo Schott, Roni Filgueiras, and Tito Guedes
Subtitle copyediting: Anna Durão, Carla Peixoto, Laura Zandonadi, and Patrícia Sá Rêgo
Data editing: Isabela Marinho
Acknowledgments: Gege Produções, Gilberto Gil, Flora Gil, Gilda Mattoso, Fafá Giordano, Maria Gil, Meny Lopes, Nelci Frangipani, Cristina Doria, Daniella Bartolini, and all photographers and characters in the stories
All media: Instituto Gilberto Gil

Credits: All media
The story featured may in some cases have been created by an independent third party and may not always represent the views of the institutions, listed below, who have supplied the content.
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